Here's the problem with mast/win/var, they are all somewhat unique drugs, but they are all DHT based. The beauty of tren/mast, is they are working in different ways and better compliment one another. But the bigger question, can one get ripped without tren? The answer is yes. I have done it. In fact, the year I didn't use tren turned out to be one of my favorite looks. Of course, the diet and cardio is going to play the biggest role in how lean you get. The DHT hardeners will add to your look. I probably wouldn't use mast, var and winny, but maybe 2 out of the 3. If you wrere to diet down on prop, mast and add winstrol in 6 wks out, you would do very well, assuming everything else is in place(diet program). You could always use clen and GH to help reach low single digits